22RE - To Lube Head Bolts.. Or Not To Lube?
04-15-2008, 06:18 PM
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22RE - To Lube Head Bolts.. Or Not To Lube?
What is the common consensus? I serached and saw people using a little oil. Others do not it may affect torque readings. Does Toyota use lube in the factory? Or use antiseize? I have the head resting on the block, just needing to torque it down. Oh yeah they are they are new head bolts, with the black oxide finish i just think they may need some lube to get them in the block smoothly.
04-15-2008, 06:35 PM
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Definitely yes....lube them. A light coat of oil on the threads and on the spacers and underneath the bolt head.
What affects the torque reading and clamping force adversely is NOT lubing them. Friction throws everything off and you want to reduce that.
Make sure you also chase the bolt holes in the block so that you can easily thread the bolts all the way down by hand. You'll need a thread chaser to do that, of course. In which case, you can take one of your old headbolts and cut grooves perpendicular to the threads and make your own chaser. Two or three grooves down the side ought to do it.
What affects the torque reading and clamping force adversely is NOT lubing them. Friction throws everything off and you want to reduce that.
Make sure you also chase the bolt holes in the block so that you can easily thread the bolts all the way down by hand. You'll need a thread chaser to do that, of course. In which case, you can take one of your old headbolts and cut grooves perpendicular to the threads and make your own chaser. Two or three grooves down the side ought to do it.
04-15-2008, 06:45 PM
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Always lube them. Also make sure you oil under the head of the bolt and the surface of the head were the washer goes. When you are torquing them down it will give you more of an accurate result rather than dry which will dig into the head and bind when torquing.
James
James
04-15-2008, 07:10 PM
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x3 on chasing the threads. Make sure you do that all the way in and out. I put a light coat of anti seize on my head bolts, but I'm sure you could just use a little bit of clean oil also.
I recall having read a posting by engnbldr about how he torques head bolts. It was an interesting read.
I recall having read a posting by engnbldr about how he torques head bolts. It was an interesting read.
04-15-2008, 08:51 PM
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Courtesy of Mr. Dale "Da Man" Mt. Goat......(author, engnbdlr)
>>>*Other than simple overheat, the #1 cause of head gasket failure is clamping force variations.
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Quote:
>>>*Morning!
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
>>>*Other than simple overheat, the #1 cause of head gasket failure is clamping force variations.
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Quote:
>>>*Morning!
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
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