jumper_bob

hi to all, thx for taking your time to even read my first post!

have a questions about 22re performance. i have read and searched the forums and understand that this engine will never be a powerhouse and am okay with that.

but i would love some feedback on my minor-mod plan from those who know better than i do (this is my first toyota - coming from full size, mostly Ford trucks and Scouts, so never had to deal with power issues really before

have an 87 4runner with 22re and 265's or so. its fairly new to me, was purchased from a former Toyota mechanic who claims about 40-60K on a rebuild. vechile is well maintained and runs great so i tend to believe him. Am looking for just a bit of a bump in performance. in addition, it makes a bit of racket upon initial startup. it sounds to me like the typical engine start-up lack of oil pressure for about 2-3 seconds and then goes away; but a guy in town who knows Toys said it sounded to him like the timing chain rubbing against some plastic spacer in there, which he said was a common issue in theses engines. so a new timing chain/associated parts is in order here very soon before winter comes on too hard.

just did compression test yesterday, but forgot to warm the engine up pre-test so figured the slightly low #s i got were overall okay (except the last)
Cylinder #1: 130psi
2 - 140psi
3 - 150 psi
4 - 120psi??? this one seems a bit low to me. book calls for 170psi in this engine. with these numbers, is minor modding even a benefit? anyone else aware of their current compression #s???

heres the plan:
already have the head/intake off a 86 22re with a burned up cylinder., so was going to take that to a shop and have them do some mild porting work to smooth out and increase intake airflow; then put in a bit more aggressive cam which i have read here is the most reasonable way of acheiving a bit more power.

put that rebuilt head on the currently running engine, replace timing chain while in there, and also put in a cold air intake (with intake swapped to current battery position to avoid radiator heat and put battery on other side), coupled with a header and muffler, minus the cat (emissions exempt here).

prolly also throw in some upgraded ignition parts, i.e. a higher performance coil, igniter, cap, wires to get the most powerful spark i can.

i dont think i would have to swap out the distributor, tell me if i am wrong.

overall the goal is to get more air in more smoothly, better combustion, and easier exit. with the cam in the middle of all that for a bit of a bump in HP. i also would like to keep it fairly quiet on the exhaust end but well flowing out.

was also going to remove the A/C compressor/system because i run custom-half doors and no top in the summer so the AC is a bit superfluous and i know the compressor probably steals a couple of HP.

any opinions on:
- my general overall plan
- suggestions for specific parts to be used (i.e. which cam to use, is K&N okay for the intake or are there better ones available, suggestions on brands of header, type of exhaust???)


thanks again in advance for reading this, i am pretty comfy with off roading and vehicle mods but am new to Toy's and greatly appreciate all the tech info and feedback on boards like these.

Regards, Scott
Durango CO (anyone else around this area???)

abecedarian

Welcome to YT!!

Since you've got the head off, you should've been able to see if the chain guide was broke and that would tell you if the guy in town was right about that. Also, since the head is off, re-ringing is a fairly simple affair. That would also give you the chance to check the rod bearings and replace if necessary- they could be a source of your start-up knock.
Porting the head may help but you should also look in to oversized valves.
I wouldn't worry about removing the a/c since it steals no power when it's off and helps with the defrost in cold weather.
Header is pretty much your choice. There's some disagreement about stock vs tri-y vs 4-into-1. But in general, stock is acceptable with mild mods but the latter two will add some power over stock. Tri-y's tend to help mid-rpms and 4-1's tend to be high rpm helpers but with our engines they tend to be nearly equal in peak hp / torque performance, just at different rpm's and since we don't rev over 5500 (usually) they tend to perform similarly. There is a general consensus that Pacesetter headers should be avoided.
CAI's can help with the 22re but they are a possible easy-entry point for water in to the intake. Since you're moving the airbox over to the battery side, a K&N drop in the stock air-box would probably be fine but they don't filter as well as a paper element but do withstand water better.

AzStorm

Check out LC Engineerings website.
More goodies than you can throw a wallet at!

iamsuperbleeder

or more goodies than your wallet can even throw at, lmao

Kiroshu

Headers. Synthetic oil. All round gaskets. Donot remove that toyota OEM distibutor you will be sorry. But new cap and button is a good idea. I recommend OEM Wires and NGK plugs. If not then... well.... your loss.... keep those small tires or go back to stock size which is 225/75 and ur lil 22re won't have to work as hard to get going. Gearing? Rebuild your rearend and or front too.... or if you want.... i wouldn't but you can get bigger gearing...... i supose.... blah i'm an OEM guy so it hurts to say that. Yea you could disconnect ur AC... thats a lil less load on the engine..... Advance ur timing to 12BTDC and about 750-950 idle and you will feel alil more git-up to it.

Kiroshu

Oh and welcome to yota tech.

Junkers88

Welcome to YT!!!

Sounds like you've got a good plan there and you already know that our little 4 cylinder is NOT going to out run some of the old 304's and 345's. About the only adivce I can give is to not worry about some sort of cold air intake and instead go with a snorkle or hood scoop so that when you do the battery/air box swap you won't be pulling hot air out of the engine compartment. I'll be doing some mods soon to mount my Supra MAF to the valve cover and will be using a hood scoop to cover it. Speaking of which you might want to do the Supra MAF conversion (a quick search will provide lots of info). Of course after that you're going to need a little bigger throttle body......


Oh and here's something to take you down memory lane.

jumper_bob

hey guys

thanks very much for the info. sounds like i am headed in the right direction mostly with some minor pep's right now and then a head to get done right.

i dont actually have the head off the running engine right now but will check the timing chain guards when i get the other head worked on and ready to put on the running engine.

i also should do a better compression test with a warm engine - i am not super huge into the whole lower engine work - is it pretty easy to re-ring and pull pistons with the engine still in truck with upper half pulled off?

i like keeping stock ignition idea - toy's are reliable as are so why mess with it!!!

sounds like my immediate plan is to throw in synthetic oil (its due anyways), new cap/wires/rotor, i just got Bosch platinum plugs yesterday - any bad reports about those vs the NGK???

Kiroshu - thx for the tip RE timing - that'll happen right away too and i am curious to see the results.

gonna order a tri-y header probbly this wknd -NOT the Pacesetter LOL thanks - and have my local muffler guy do a straight forward Flowmaster or similar minus the catty so that takes care of the exhaust side.

would there be any point to just porting the stock manifold (i have an extra) or would a tri-y give better oomph?

and just might think for a bit RE the CAI - i do like the bigger airflow and surface area of the KN 4"round , but as you say, water intake (thats how i burned up the piston in my donor engine - water into the intake and subsequent bad moves on my part to correct)

but either way, will move the stock airbox over - i was thinking about a ghetto snorkel setup anyways, so will mull that over for a bit (had one on a ford ranger i fabbed from some gutter elbows/pieces and it worked great!) and hopefully that will keep the water out so I could use a higher-flow filter. its pretty moist out here in the winter with road spray etc so would really like a KN filter; even if i stick with the stock box.

you guys got any thoughts on more aggressive cam or do most of y'all run the stock one? i am def not into regearing; this is gonna end up being the GF's truck so wanna keep it reasonable.

time to go check out LC Engineering!!!! (***painful sigh from the wallet already ***)


Junkers88 -------

JAW DROPPING

I LOVE THE SCOUT!!!! WILL YOU TRADE FOR MY GF?????

Junkers88

I sold that one a few years ago. Kid drove down here from Kansas and fired that little diesel up and drove it home. Besides I just got rid of a wife and do not need a GF.

I think that porting/polishing the head might not be a bad idea. The header will help as will the cam. The one thing that will help the most is to let her drive the rig around now that way she feels the difference when you get all the other stuff done to it.

I'll be the first to say it.

Kiroshu

I'll tell you what its totally up to you but i know for a fact that NGK is recomended by toyota and is the best for ur toyota to run tip top. But if you put anyother cheap'o plug in there you have a high risk of crapp power and possible backfiring..... I know that the bosch fusions are good plugs and do ok for 22re's. But Bosch and NGK are all that i would ever think of in a toyota.... About the timing.... just to break your 22re in after all the head and chain work i would set it too stock timing and idle first on start up and for a few days to let your lil 22re get used to the set up then afterwards go ahead. The more advanced ur timing the more efficent your engine runs. When you do the chain get a good one. Don't cheap out since your in there. Get a very good head gasket too..... Right now in my truck i have an unknown 4 to 1 header with gutted cat and flowmaster exhaust. And shes still extremely quite with nice performance. Be advised the header will let out a bit more valve nosie but its all good. Shes a 22r!

YotaTron88'

Hedman header fit nice and there cheap. Strip the paint and use VHT clear coat to make em last forever. Advance your timing a little and run premo gas. Yank the cat (if you live in the contry) and do a 2.25" exhaust with a Flowmaster Delta 60 or 50. Get a cold air intake. Those mods should get your truck more responsive. Don't port your head it's a waste. Port MATCH the head to intake manifold and exhaust to header. A cam will get you a nice kick too. AFter these you gotta start doing a lot more stuff to get and good gains. New head, carbs, intake, nitrous, electic fan, shaving weight, ect.....

olharleyman

Here is the best advice I got when I rebuilt my 22re and all I can say is I am very happy I followed it though I did add a header but this is the parts I used as well engnbldr is top notch and will answer any questions you have and very fast I might add.


>>>*I said I would offer a few tips on improving the power output of the little 2.4L Toyota engine. For this discussion we are speaking of the 1985 and later engine design, it is the most efficient of all in this series.

So here goes.

The one trouble I had writing this was it started to sound a bit like an advertisement for parts I supply. The problem there is that of course those are the parts I use.

So right off the bat, remember that there are many good venders with many good items, and they may well be every bit as good as what I have. I will say there are quite a few builders out there that this old man spends as much time chasing as vice-versa. In any event, I will try to be as generic as possible.

*******

Our goal is to assemble the POTENTIAL to produce up to 150 horsepower, but what we usually really want is to improve the torque output within the normal operating powerband.

The basics include a solid short block, a sound cylinder head, an upgrade camshaft, and an improved exhaust system. From this point, we simply tease several areas.

Improvements to the fueling system can also help, but they are way down the list as to real gains, so I will not go into that, other than make sure the system is clean and the mixture proper.

*******

One very important step is to verify the quench before final assembly, which is often overlooked. Quench is the close collision of the piston head to the flat part of the combustion chamber. Nearly all aftermarket pistons are destroked by about .3mm or around .012" or so. This varies a tad between brands, so installing a new piston set will probably reduce the piston height. Then if your machinist resizes the connecting rods, you just lost even more deck height because they clip the cap and rod to do it. (Well, they do if they are doing it right.)

********

There is only one real way to check for quench, you must assemble the short block and measure. So you will need one spare set of connecting rod bearings, they are cheap since all 1975 to 1995 take the same part, only the undersize varies depending on if your crankshaft is machined or not.

Then if the machine shop regrinds the crankshaft, you really could end up with 4 different deck heights in the same engine, unless they index the crankshaft stroke and most simply do not. By the time they get to, say, .030" undersize and have resized all of the connecting rods, it can stack up to a lot, and this just kills power output.

So "dummy" up the short block, and measure how close the piston is to the top of the block. A straight edge and a feeler guage makes this easy. We want it to be zero deck, or as close to that as we can get. Stock, the piston does protrude by about .006" or so, if yours does, this is fine.

The goal here is to get them all to as close to the same as possible and up where they belong.

If this measurement shows the piston is down from the top of the deck at TDC, you will need to disassemble and correct this by having the block decked. Tight quench means you can run proper ignition timing without pinging. A sloppy quench will create more pinging at less timing that the tighter compression ratio will, the blast effect of the close collision atomizes the mixture and distributes it better across the chamber.

Be sure to keep track of exactly how much is surfaced off the engine block, this is important I will get to why later.

********

Right here I will insert one theory I have that is at odds with almost ALL other engine rebuilders. This is knife-edging the counterweights. I say this is exactly backwards.

Think of a V-bottomed boat, then a flat bottomed boat. Which one takes less power to get up on top? The knife-edged counterweight slides into the oil, and leads with much more surface area. Oil is kinda clingy stuff, even when hot. Instead, we smooth and blend the leading edge leaving it square. There is a pressure wave ahead of the flat surface, oil moves aside. The shaft spins more freely with less drag. I personally quit doing the knife-edging in circa 1990 on our stock car engines, the result was a drop in oil temp of about 15° on the endurance engines, ALL of them. One gain however might be in weight but the mass is so close to centerline I feel it is of little consequence.

We just use stock crankshafts on our Toyota engines, or our new performance ones, which are really just a nice forged steel upgrade, and so far they work fine.

Here is where I feel is a nice little gain, take some time and some sanding rolls and polish roughness out of the leading edge of the counterweights, and remove any odd flashings and casting flaws on the shaft before you have it remachined. You will see lots of them if you look. Don't get carried away here, but it can help to keep the oil cooler which isn't horsepower but is durability. You were going to rebalance anyway, right?

*********

Engine size is the next concern. Those with the strokers love them, and if in the budget, go for it. (Mosk cheats, stuffing cubic inches down the top of a big old stroker isn't fair to the rest of us on a budget...*LOL**) That stuff is cool but it would break the bank for many of us. We are trying to be cheap here since the kids are standing around yelling about silly stuff like food, and the wife is waving some piece of paper that says electric bill, whatever that is.

Of course, seeing the number of ladies buying engine parts over the last few years, it just may be HER that is out there overhauling the 4 Runner, so why don't you get up off your dead..(well, you know) and go help her?

*You can find out who won the football game later.

*heehee.

********

Normally the block will require rebore, always bore as little as possible to assure round and straight bores. There is no reason to overbore to gain cubic inches, it does gain some of course but about a tablespoon or so is all. You will be better off with the cylinder walls as thick as possible for rigidity, more power can be lost in frictionals than can be gained in size by boring, so I feel around .040" is maximum without checking out the cylinder walls thicknesses carefully.

*******

Now both Darin's and Larry's engines are .060", but I went through perhaps a dozen blocks to find some I would use there. That is a PIA. The fun part with both of those was that the pistons were NOT destroked, so after decking the blocks they kinda stuck out a tad too much. Putting the head on with it that way would be embarrassing and get me phone calls. So I simply milled off some of the outer raised circle on the piston head, effectively raising the compression ratio by about .5 to one plus the gain from the overbore, those both came out to a shade over 10.1:1 which made me nervous. They haven't sent me any nasty emails though, so it seemed to work. This is easy to do if you can find the non-destroked pistons anymore, if you can, email me and let me know where.

*******

So now we have the block assembled, the deck height is zero to less than plus .006", and deck is flat, straight, and perfectly smooth. Bag the short block in plastic, let's go look at the cylinder head.

I prefer the Topline head casting because when I measure the ports, I get right at 5cc larger than most stock ones, and they seem to be more consistant. Your stock head will work fine if it is sound, but you must measure the thickness to know exactly how much metal has been surfaced off. Again, this is important, and I will also get to that later.

*******

Larger valves open up the "window" or area available for flow. They also change the angle of the flow cone as fuel and air enter the cylinder. It is also an improvement in the goodie, which is the initial blast effect past the head of the valve as it opens. Think of your finger on the end of a garden hose, and the spray you see as you take it off, and then it slows to a steady stream.

Exactly the same thing happens as the intake valve cracks open, and this is the best and most important portion of cylinder fill.

So larger is a big asset here for many reasons, following this logic we would think as large as possible would be even better, right? Well, no, too large then creates a velocity drop and now physical energy must be used to recover the flow, too large can actually cost power for the intent of this piece.

We use .033" larger intakes and .024" larger exhaust valves. Since our goal is to add power without paying for some Exxon executive's family vacation, this size is about right.

Of course we must now machine the valve seats larger to get them in there, and we need to make a cut under the seat to open up the bowl. Plus we need to get the valve spring assembled hieght to 1.594"-1.610" so the rocker arm doesn't go out of geometry and things don't bang into things.

To the machine shops that insist in sticking an .060" thick shim under a stock valve spring, I say they should be shot and killed and their bones hung in the Sun as a warning. The setup will handle about .480" lift without mashing stuff, stick in an .060" thick shim and we are now at around .420" or less, then bolt on a .430" lift camshaft? *Well, I bet you can see the problem. At least a half dozen came though our doors this year with exactly that situation.

We use 1.610" installed most of the time, since we are next going to be using a higher lift camshaft. The base circle will be slightly reduced, even on a brand new camshaft. It has to be to keep the rocker arm installed angle close to arc centerline.

We don't bother to port the StreetRV head versions, porting does add power but it begins to move up the RPM band quickly, we are still looking for economy and inexpensive power gain, so porting and racing is a different article.

One trick we do use is dimpling up in the bowl dome. We use a 3/8ths die grinding tip to create little dips or dents, all this does is collect fuel droplets. The idea is to take advantage of the blast effect as the valve opens. Air is easy to move, you see, the fuel would rather not so we just force it a bit. This seems to work, and seems to have stopped some of the hesitation we noticed with the very early setups. Then notice that little vortex ledge under the head of the intake valve. It is there to twist the mixture, and increase velocity at slow speeds. Fuel tends to head that way, there are some tiny gains to be had in the mid to upper RPM ranges by changing this to a slight trough. DON'T cut it out of there, you will be sorry unless you are racing or supercharged/turbo'd.

Oh, go ahead if you wish...*LOL**.

On the camshaft profile, if carbed you may run more duration, EFI is sensitive so about 222° @ .050" lobe lift is the most we will use and I prefer around 218°. The one design we do run the full 222° duration on is our little 261C, and it is only .410" gross valve lift. But that is a fat lobe little critter that is intended to offer almost instant off-throttle torque, folks who haul loads or have huge tires like that one. Still, it has that chattery idle, nature of the creature.

Lifts to .430" stay well within the geometry of the top end, for street use we prefer a bit less. You will need a slightly stronger valve spring, not much, about 5% although stock will work and run fine if in good shape, as long as you don't go teisting her to redline everywhere you go. The only way to know on your valve springs is to test them, if they won't hit 60# at seat, replace them. The stock springs are darned good pieces, though, I have seen them test just fine at 200,000 miles.

Now some venders offer split duration profiles, usually more lift/duration on the exhaust side. This has only the effect off moving the powerband to higher RPM's, we do not advise or produce anything other than single patterns, and I am currently working on a design that has much LESS lift/duration on the exhaust side and it looks extremely promising for a high-torque and economy design. (Don't ask, it's months away still.)

One trick with the cam design is lobe shape. Several venders offer many designs based on the factory lobe shape that will add valve action. We found that while this did add power, it also can add noise due to the mechanical action.

So we used a different lobe shape entirely on our current favorite design, the sudden dropoff on the factory lobe design was almost entirely eliminated. This let us produce a profile that is fairly quiet and short duration @ .050" lobe lift, and still hit .425" gross valve lift and add area under the curve.

*********

Now we are almost ready to set the head on, it is time to think of valve timing. This also gets overlooked a lot. Let's assume we decked the block by .013" to get the quench back and we are dropping on a brand new head with our personal choice of camshaft design, got the big valves all setup and in place by our favorite machine shop we trust.

We need to correct the valve timing. The easy way to do this is to go back and machine .007" off the head, to get to a total of .020" removed. The reason is now we can drop a 3 position crank gear on in the "A" position, this moves the valve timing ahead by the 2° of the cam movement we just lost due to surfacing. Or we can invest in an adjustable cam gear, that works too and lets us experiment a bit.


All of this is well within the system's ability to compensate so emissions are easy to pass, we don't need to spend a pile on larger injectors, etc.

But now we need to think about the exhaust system. Improving the exhaust system is number one as far as freeing up usuable power, it doesn't "make" any at all. But the factory needed a quiet, smooth, and responsive engine because the driver might be a little old lady going to the store in Hawaii, or a young fellow driving around at 5000 ft altitude in Colorado. So they compensated for this, and for ground clearence on some vehicles.

The best setup cost wise we have found is to use the excellent factory exhaust manifold, then increase the pipe size to 2" all the way to the muffler, yep, the cat, too. Then we increase again to 2 1/4" on exit all the way back.

This creates a bit of directional flow and frees up power, it fairly quiet and smooth.

So here is a recap, like I said, simple and basic stuff, and in the budget.

Tight short block.
Quench set to zero/+.006"
Larger valves and mods.
Single pattern cam, 222° or less @ .050", .430" or less lift.
Restore accurate valve timing.
Improve exhaust flow.

No real surprises here, easy to do, cost should be less than $1500 including the paint. This combination WILL make 140+ H/P and I have seen tests that touch 150 now.

The gains are simple, the larger bore increases compression slightly once the deck height is back to zero, the mild head surfacing does the same. The engine is now right at 9.7-9.8 to one static, still good for regular fuel. The airflow increase is about 6-7%, the flow cone is improved. The largest gain is in the larger area added by the cam profile, and this creates a need for the improved exhaust system to take advantage. Tuning settings remain stock.

muddpigg

iTrader: (1)

Wow, couldn't wouldn't read all post, my attention span is rather short. I like my engine, I like its performance.

I've read/discussed that there can be potential hazards of hitting a water jacket porting out and unknown head. Believe Ted at engine builder and I had this conversation or maybe it was Tim at DOA. But regaurdless. Think Ted was telling me that Argentine heads were the best at the time I was shopping around due to the initial thickness. So if your going to build a head might as well do it right. I'm running 1mm OS valves and a Delta 260 cam.

Think OHM hit up the assembly conccerns.

I've got the tri y and like it.

I didn't build my engine I had it built and put it in as a long block, cost/benefit/time thing.

Search around get an idea of what you think you want then start calling shops talk to the people who build and race these engines you won't be let down. Decide what you want the truck for. If its offroading then the engine is the wrong place to start modding. For me one of my goals has been to keep the truck streetable and slow as hell sucks on interstate on ramps.

When you start adding up the cost factor in that if your short on money then the only way to do it is once right.
http://www.toysport.com/Technical%20...tech_notes.htm

http://www.wildyoats.com/more_22re_hp!.htm

http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showfl...5&o=14&fpart=1 think OHM posted this 411 above

Hope these help and welcome to YT