overbuilt engine??
12-22-2011, 10:44 AM
#1
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overbuilt engine??
so im currently in the army and deployed and im planning on my build once i get back to the states. ill probably be on here more often with questions that i cant find online. this one:
Is there any issue with over building an engine? my 22r has 322,xxx miles and is in need of a rebuilt/new engine. ive been pricing alot out on LCE but i was wondering what makes a high performance engine unreliable other than compression? im planning on running a turbo/propane setup and i was wondering if, hypothetically speaking, i went with something like a stroker with a big cam, high flow head, forged pistons (around 8.5:1)...ect, if it would be an unreliable daily driver and why? im not planning on driving it everyday, but i would like to have the peace of mind knowing i could. i also dont plan on going crazy with the boost, maybe around 10 psi, 15 if im feeling throttle happy, but im not in high school anymore and enjoy going the speed limit lol.
im not looking for 'if your not going to push it, dont build it' or engine swap suggestions. just curious if it's bad to build an engine to handle around 350hp and only push about 175-225hp max. i like having that safety net.
thanks.
d_bomb
Is there any issue with over building an engine? my 22r has 322,xxx miles and is in need of a rebuilt/new engine. ive been pricing alot out on LCE but i was wondering what makes a high performance engine unreliable other than compression? im planning on running a turbo/propane setup and i was wondering if, hypothetically speaking, i went with something like a stroker with a big cam, high flow head, forged pistons (around 8.5:1)...ect, if it would be an unreliable daily driver and why? im not planning on driving it everyday, but i would like to have the peace of mind knowing i could. i also dont plan on going crazy with the boost, maybe around 10 psi, 15 if im feeling throttle happy, but im not in high school anymore and enjoy going the speed limit lol.
im not looking for 'if your not going to push it, dont build it' or engine swap suggestions. just curious if it's bad to build an engine to handle around 350hp and only push about 175-225hp max. i like having that safety net.
thanks.
d_bomb
12-22-2011, 12:42 PM
#2
Not sure where to start on this one. How about engine reliability being based on compression? Where'd you get that? So lower is better? Um...can you say diesel engines? They have very high compression ratios, are renowned for their reliability, and routinely run for millions of miles. Explain that...actually..nevermind..don't bother. Compression is irrelevant to reliability...
Next, you overbuild all engines...regardless. The more overbuilt the better(it's NEVER a "bad" thing to do, or overdo). But how the hell are you going to say it can handle 350hp if you've never even run it that hard? Like anybody really knows what it takes to build a 22R to handle that much power anyways? I've never heard of no 22R, 22R-E, or even a 22R-TE that makes much more than 200hp. And that's with all the upgrades your heart desires. If you can get 250hp out of one I'd like to see it. Could it handle more than that? Who knows if nobody's done it yet?
Top dollar($6500) gets you this from LCE.
22R/RE Stage 5 Pro Stroker Race Long Block
When you're ready to play with the big dogs, look no further than LC Engineering's Stage 5 series race engines! LCE's engine department has built some of the strongest 22R engines on the planet. Based on over 20 years of experience and countless hours of research and development from all forms of racing, we can supply you with not only some of the most powerful race engines, but also some of the most reliable. The Stage 5 is the accumulation of all these years of experience. Starting from the completely studded block (ARP head and main studs) to the radically modified cylinder head, there is no match for LC Engineering's Stage 5 race engines. All of our motors come blueprinted, assembled, and dyno tested.
ALL STAGE 5 SERIES ENGINES COME WITH THE FOLLOWING COMPONENTS:
•LCE Pro Stroker Crankshaft & Crankshaft Scraper
•LCE Chromoly H-Beam Connecting Rods
•Oil Pan
•LCE Pro Block Brace
•Clevite Main, Rod & Thrust Bearings
•Brand New Water Pump
•LCE Pro Oil Pump & Oil Pump Bypass (Pressure Adjustment)
•LCE Dual Row Timing Chain Kit & New Custom Timing Chain Cover
•ARP Head Studs & ARP Main Cap Studs
•Radically Ported Cylinder Head (Brand New Casting) & MLS Head Gasket
•New OEM Aluminium Toyota Rocker Arms & LCE Pro Rocker Shafts
•LCE Dual Row Adjustable Cam Gear
•LCE Dual Valve Springs & Titanium Valve Spring Retainers
•NGK Spark Plugs
•Billet Oil Cap
•LCE Pro Water Block Plate Kit
•LCE "Red Head" Race Valve Cover
•94mm Forged Pistons (Your Choice of Compression Ratios)
•48mm Stainless Steel Swirl Polished Intake Valves & 40mm Stainless Steel Swirl Polished Exhaust Valves
•Your Choice of Custom Performance Camshafts
Last edited by MudHippy; 12-22-2011 at 02:11 PM.
12-23-2011, 12:38 AM
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this is the problem with forums these days, they used to be a place for helpful information rather than off the bat hostility. i used to be in the autocross scene and had a Saturn built for it, so i learned alot about them. if you can get 400hp out of a 1.9L LLO engine, with about 10% of the aftermarket, im pretty sure you can get that much out of a 22r. those were just numbers i was throwing out there so you guys know what i mean, obviously i havent built a 22r pushing that much...
my question was simple, but maybe ill make it simpler. if i run that engine, on 8.5:1 with 10-15 psi on propane, is there any issue im going to run into with running it every day? i guess im wondering more about the top end rather than the bottom, i.e. is it a bad plan to have a high flowing head with a bigger cam but not plan on running it above 5-6k rpm that often? and i'm not looking for a motor swap.
and this is not a diesel engine, so you cant really compare them. higher compression equals higher combustion pressures. higher combustion pressure equals more power. more power equals more stress and wear.
im not new to the automotive world and am, in fact, a diesel mechanic in the army. i fully understand many of the theories about what im planning on doing, but im trying to see if anybody has actual experience, advice, and/or answers.
my question was simple, but maybe ill make it simpler. if i run that engine, on 8.5:1 with 10-15 psi on propane, is there any issue im going to run into with running it every day? i guess im wondering more about the top end rather than the bottom, i.e. is it a bad plan to have a high flowing head with a bigger cam but not plan on running it above 5-6k rpm that often? and i'm not looking for a motor swap.
and this is not a diesel engine, so you cant really compare them. higher compression equals higher combustion pressures. higher combustion pressure equals more power. more power equals more stress and wear.
im not new to the automotive world and am, in fact, a diesel mechanic in the army. i fully understand many of the theories about what im planning on doing, but im trying to see if anybody has actual experience, advice, and/or answers.
Last edited by d_bomb; 12-23-2011 at 10:20 AM.
12-23-2011, 10:40 AM
#4
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The top and bottom on these engines is already WAY overbuilt.
However, these things just don't make that much power. They really aren't built to rev too high, and they are really made for low end torque.
But, if you want to, go for it. And if you want it to rev, look into a lightened flywheel. A buddy of mine took like 10lbs off his flywheel on a brake lathe, then proceeded to add several well-placed holes.. No clutch chatter, and that thing liked to rev.
However, these things just don't make that much power. They really aren't built to rev too high, and they are really made for low end torque.
But, if you want to, go for it. And if you want it to rev, look into a lightened flywheel. A buddy of mine took like 10lbs off his flywheel on a brake lathe, then proceeded to add several well-placed holes.. No clutch chatter, and that thing liked to rev.
12-23-2011, 11:02 AM
#5
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mud hippy woke up on the wrong side of the bed huh? meow. in my experience when you upgrade too many things on these motors they do become less reliable. that being said ive had issues with stock motors too. if your going to build a 22r upgrade everthing. all the way up to a bigger oil filter. Honestly your probably much more inclined than me to be able to throw a turbo on there and all that, but im just giving you my experience. ive rebuilt 3 or 4 of these motors and love them, but ive never got more than 200 whp out of them and the one i did was super bored over like to the max(i think it was .50 or .60 or whatever the biggest bore is on these things.. its been awhile). i wouldnt dream of trying for any more power without losing a CONSIDERABLE amount of reliability. and whoever said these motors dont like to rev is correct. again.. in my experience. good luck!
12-23-2011, 11:58 AM
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the engine is only 1 factor as there is still the rest of the drivetrain to factor in when planning to generate that much hp/torque. goodluck on the build and can't wait to read about the outcome.
12-23-2011, 02:12 PM
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The stock drivetrain in these trucks isn't all that great. Especially the stock clutch. They are stupid weak. So you will need some attention in the tranny area as well.
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12-23-2011, 06:42 PM
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I love my Stage 5 LCE engine that I bought years ago. It still runs just as strong today, but it is realistically not a daily driver. I can't afford the 100 octane fuel to run it on. So my 91B brother, I think you are asking too much of a 22R to drive daily. Now if you have an endless supply of aviation fuel or something, then drive that SOB everyday, but otherwise, it is really not feasible.
I have my rev limiter on my LCE engine set at 9200 and it will bump it just fine in Lo-Loc, 2nd gear in a mudhole churning my 39.5 boggers(5.71 gears)
I have my rev limiter on my LCE engine set at 9200 and it will bump it just fine in Lo-Loc, 2nd gear in a mudhole churning my 39.5 boggers(5.71 gears)
12-23-2011, 06:54 PM
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if u want power then 22r aint for you my motor is pretty built and it dont have that much balls oh and i have alot more done to it then just wats in my sig
Last edited by creswellhick; 12-23-2011 at 07:10 PM.
12-23-2011, 07:03 PM
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Well this will be a fun thread. Yes overbuild and more than 250hp is possible with the 22re. Toyota racing development (TRD) was smart enough to build one that is able to handle 500. yell at me and be butthurt about it all that cant figure out how to build one to handle that but it has apparently been done. All I can say if you want to continue with reliability then money is hopefully no option. dont cheap out on parts. thats self explanatory. ARP head studs I heard were better than stock. Gaskets Ive found the best ones you can get are toyota gaskets. and with the turbo setup if LCE recommends something for that then do it. they know what they are doing. Just remember with upgrades comes the need to beef up other things. so yes OVERBUILD TO YOUR HEARTS DESIRE.
12-24-2011, 01:39 AM
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thank you for the actual help. im not worried about the money aspect and this is my 'dream truck' so im not going to get rid of it or get a new project (at least until this is done).
and captdash (91B yourself?), ill be running on propane which is around 105-110 octane. the only reason i want more power is to be able to easily turn the big dumb tires ill have on it. ill have 5.29 gears, but they can only get you so far. i dont plan on rock climbing or trail riding, just maybe the occasional mud hole. i have alot of plans for this truck, and i cant wait to be back in the states to start it.
for now, until i put together a sig, my trucks:
'85 toyota pickup, 22r, 5 speed, 3" susp, 33s, rust free and solid frame
'92 toyota pickup, 22re, 5 speed, 3" body, cranked torsions, 35s, beat up trail truck and back up DD
and captdash (91B yourself?), ill be running on propane which is around 105-110 octane. the only reason i want more power is to be able to easily turn the big dumb tires ill have on it. ill have 5.29 gears, but they can only get you so far. i dont plan on rock climbing or trail riding, just maybe the occasional mud hole. i have alot of plans for this truck, and i cant wait to be back in the states to start it.
for now, until i put together a sig, my trucks:
'85 toyota pickup, 22r, 5 speed, 3" susp, 33s, rust free and solid frame
'92 toyota pickup, 22re, 5 speed, 3" body, cranked torsions, 35s, beat up trail truck and back up DD
Last edited by d_bomb; 12-24-2011 at 01:41 AM.
12-24-2011, 05:34 AM
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thank you for the actual help. im not worried about the money aspect and this is my 'dream truck' so im not going to get rid of it or get a new project (at least until this is done).
and captdash (91B yourself?), ill be running on propane which is around 105-110 octane. the only reason i want more power is to be able to easily turn the big dumb tires ill have on it. ill have 5.29 gears, but they can only get you so far. i dont plan on rock climbing or trail riding, just maybe the occasional mud hole. i have alot of plans for this truck, and i cant wait to be back in the states to start it.
for now, until i put together a sig, my trucks:
'85 toyota pickup, 22r, 5 speed, 3" susp, 33s, rust free and solid frame
'92 toyota pickup, 22re, 5 speed, 3" body, cranked torsions, 35s, beat up trail truck and back up DD
and captdash (91B yourself?), ill be running on propane which is around 105-110 octane. the only reason i want more power is to be able to easily turn the big dumb tires ill have on it. ill have 5.29 gears, but they can only get you so far. i dont plan on rock climbing or trail riding, just maybe the occasional mud hole. i have alot of plans for this truck, and i cant wait to be back in the states to start it.
for now, until i put together a sig, my trucks:
'85 toyota pickup, 22r, 5 speed, 3" susp, 33s, rust free and solid frame
'92 toyota pickup, 22re, 5 speed, 3" body, cranked torsions, 35s, beat up trail truck and back up DD
If I had it to do all over again, I think I would look at the fuel injection systems offered by LCE. I am not sure how much power those sytems can make vs the Mikuni Carbs. I am partial to the Mikunis vs the Webers myself. I remember that John(LCE) once told me about their alcohol injected engines doing 600HP, but then you take the daily driver element out of the equation with that. I would be interested to follow what you come up with. Be safe brother and come on back stateside.
12-24-2011, 06:38 AM
#14
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No such thing as over-built in these engines. It's not like you will make enough power to split the block on these things like you can with a SBC. Meaning no cyl sleeving is necessary to handle high compression. However....... You cannot build a bottom end for 12:1 compression and expect to use the stock head gasket. And you cannot build these things and run them at 8,000+ RPM and expect to use the stock valve train.
That being said these engines if built properly can and will handle 12:1 compression, 300+ HP and 8,000+ RPM. I wouldn't consider that overly built. However for a daily driver and/or a crawler, I would consider that over built, but not because of a reliability issue.
Now I am not saying 12:1 compression will get you to 300HP, but 7:1 and a turbo/charger running 15+psi boost will. If you can get 200+ HP out of a NA 22re engine, you sure as heck CAN get 300+ while using forced induction.
You can probably get close to these numbers buy using a blow through turbo setup as well on a 22r. But not many people in the world are capable of building one.
That being said these engines if built properly can and will handle 12:1 compression, 300+ HP and 8,000+ RPM. I wouldn't consider that overly built. However for a daily driver and/or a crawler, I would consider that over built, but not because of a reliability issue.
Now I am not saying 12:1 compression will get you to 300HP, but 7:1 and a turbo/charger running 15+psi boost will. If you can get 200+ HP out of a NA 22re engine, you sure as heck CAN get 300+ while using forced induction.
You can probably get close to these numbers buy using a blow through turbo setup as well on a 22r. But not many people in the world are capable of building one.
12-24-2011, 06:46 AM
#15
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Yes overbuild and more than 250hp is possible with the 22re. Toyota racing development (TRD) was smart enough to build one that is able to handle 500. yell at me and be butthurt about it all that cant figure out how to build one to handle that but it has apparently been done.
12-24-2011, 06:46 AM
#16
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close to 200 at the wheels and what I think is 10psi and 8:1. What do you (MudHippy) think it's putting out at the crank? And IMO 10psi is conservative. Drop the compression and up the boost, I'd bet you can get 250 at the wheels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye3GlWq7exA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye3GlWq7exA
12-24-2011, 06:55 AM
#17
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11.65 @ 122 mph with a turbo'd 22re and that using 8:1 compression. 
http://www.sdsefi.com/features/sept01toy.htm
Now I don't know the weight of a typical 2wd truck, but @ 2700 lb that's roughly 410-450 hp at the wheels. Considering drive train losses that number has got to be close to 500 at the crank and I feel that 2700 lb is being conservative.
http://www.sdsefi.com/features/sept01toy.htm
Now I don't know the weight of a typical 2wd truck, but @ 2700 lb that's roughly 410-450 hp at the wheels. Considering drive train losses that number has got to be close to 500 at the crank and I feel that 2700 lb is being conservative.
12-24-2011, 07:24 AM
#18
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The manufacture of this guys manifold was stating 400 out of this guys http://www.wopracing.com/wop_joomla/
http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplema...10673#msg10673
Now if you look at steed speed's site that exact manifold is no longer available, however here is an older vid of that manifold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7neeq1RG2kQ
Now one can question the reliability, but you don't build a race truck capable of 400+ HP and it not be reliable. Maybe not streetable, but just because it's not streetable doesn't necessarily make it unreliable.
Honda guys have been making 500+ HP engines that start out not much more then the 22re's power for years. Why is it so hard to believe the toyota guys can't?
http://www.22rte-trucks.com/simplema...10673#msg10673
Now if you look at steed speed's site that exact manifold is no longer available, however here is an older vid of that manifold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7neeq1RG2kQ
Now one can question the reliability, but you don't build a race truck capable of 400+ HP and it not be reliable. Maybe not streetable, but just because it's not streetable doesn't necessarily make it unreliable.
Honda guys have been making 500+ HP engines that start out not much more then the 22re's power for years. Why is it so hard to believe the toyota guys can't?
12-24-2011, 07:46 AM
#19
How about this 22R-TE...250.5 HP & 279.1 ft-lbs Torque
http://www.well.com/user/mosk/
I stand corrected...stupid thing is I've seen the damn thing a couple dozen times but the 250 HP part just never stuck...
http://www.well.com/user/mosk/
I stand corrected...stupid thing is I've seen the damn thing a couple dozen times but the 250 HP part just never stuck...
Last edited by MudHippy; 12-24-2011 at 07:52 AM.
12-24-2011, 07:52 AM
#20
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Biggest thing on these things is the headgasket and keeping them together. That above guy is supposedly putting 400 HP to a stock forged crank. But using a true MLS headgasket is a must. And there is not many machine shops that have the machining tools for those. But chances are if your building one of these beasts your doing it to race competitively and have those tools at hand yourself.
I do wonder though at the 400-500 HP mark if these engines are sleeved or not. Any engine can be sleeved.
I do believe however some of the LCE 300+ HP NA claims are bogus. Since the 200-250 with 10 psi seems to be the norm. And a "typical" mild turbo setup adds about 50% to the engine. Which would put that engine with an NA compression ratio at roughly 150HP a far cry from 300 NA HP.
And that above mentioned drag truck is using 48lb injectors. You don't use those things for a 200HP engine. lol.
But using a true MLS headgasket is a must. And there is not many machine shops that have the machining tools for those. But chances are if your building one of these beasts your doing it to race competitively and have those tools at hand yourself. I do wonder though at the 400-500 HP mark if these engines are sleeved or not. Any engine can be sleeved.
I do believe however some of the LCE 300+ HP NA claims are bogus. Since the 200-250 with 10 psi seems to be the norm. And a "typical" mild turbo setup adds about 50% to the engine. Which would put that engine with an NA compression ratio at roughly 150HP a far cry from 300 NA HP.
And that above mentioned drag truck is using 48lb injectors. You don't use those things for a 200HP engine. lol.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-24-2011 at 07:55 AM.
