dubyayoung

I have a 1985 truck with a 22R engine. I had the carburetor replaced a year or so ago and it has ran fine since, other than it has become hard to start when the engine is hot. Anyway I had to take it in for a smog “test only” (California), and they failed it. It passed all of the emissions numbers, but they said they could smell fuel in the engine area, the gas cap failed it’s test, and the timing was set at 40 degrees BTC!

So I bought a new gas cap, then went home to check on the other two items. I never smelled the gas (although I have smelled it before), but did verify the timing being off severely. It was off so far that I couldn’t move the distributor enough to get it even close to where it was supposed to be (0 BTC @ 950 RPM with vacuum lines at the distributor disconnected and plugged).

I removed the distributor, put the engine at TDC #1 cylinder compression, reinstalled the distributor with the rotor pointing at #1 wire, and I was able to set the timing correctly once it was running. The problem is that it runs like crap there. It sputters, and doesn’t want to accelerate, then dies, and is hard to restart (which could be a function of my previous starting problem when hot). The timing advances when I reconnect the vacuum lines, but it still runs bad.

Any thoughts or ideas? Why was it able to run well with the timing so far off, and run like crap with it set right?

xxxtreme22r

I don't even think 40 degree window is even possible. It also sounds to me that the timing chain jumped.

0 should be right in the middle he adjustment window. Otherwise the distributor could be a tooth off.

Also double check and make sure no spark plug wires are mixed up.

rokblok

iTrader: (1)

Thats a big reason I live in Georgia. In my neck o' da woods, we dont have emissions... My truck has no cat, smells like gas, floods ocassionally, exhaust leaks everywhere, vacuum hoses missing(intentionally) and it runs great, gets 22+ MPG at 75+ MPH...

mommucked

How many miles on the chain? they stretch, and the guides and tensioner pad wear too w age, and the timing specs are for engines in good condition. Ive found the best way to adjust timeing with mileage on the chain,gears,tensioner, etc. is with my ears, at idle, with a hot engine. Usually starting,and power is better this way w older timeing parts. Can you hear alot of racket or chattering from the timing chain? If its got more than 80,000 on it it might need replaceing, but I'm no expert. Can you smell gas in the oil? I had a fuel pump diaphram leak fuel staight into the crankcase years ago and would have ruined the engine if I had'nt replaced it sooner. Alot of gas in the oil!

bain

yea sounds like its off a tooth..and if the timings too advanced it will be hard to start when the engines hot..mine had the same symptoms...

B874Runner

the distributor is off a tooth. I had this happen with my Z28. Take it out, turn it slightly and drop it back in. You will notice a difference in the way the truck will run when you set it in correctly.

dubyayoung

Sorry for not getting back sooner. I guess I wasn't clear on what I did. I removed the distributor and installed it so the timing is correct, 0 degrees with both vacuum lines disconnected and plugged. That is where it is supposed to be, but that is when it runs like crap (with the lines reconnected even).

The engine has around 95,000 miles on it since it was rebuilt, so I guess the chain could be loose, if that is what you are thinking. I don't hear any noise there, but don't know what a loose chain would sound like.

My question then would be what would be off if the timing is right, and I have verified the #1 piston was at TDC when the timing mark is on 0?

I'll check for fuel smell in the oil tomorrow evening.

xxxtreme22r

Have you tried spraying carb cleaner around the carb base yet?

Also with timing at 0 degrees is the adjustment bolt in the middle of that adjustment window? If not then the distributor is not right.

When you attaching the vacuum line is the idle noticeably going up?

mommucked

When I changed my T-chain years ago my truck was running lousy,no power rough idle,chattering or metallic clicking while idleing etc. I discovered the plastic chain guides had busted into pieces that fell into the oilpan and were clogging the oil pump strainer, obviosly starving the engine for oil also. If your chain is worn out you cannot get the motor to run right. You may get it to idle, but it won't have power or run well at higher RPMs, If you get power, it wont idle. How is your ignition sys.? a cracked or old dirty dist cap can cause rough running also springs in the advance mechanism can weaken or break. The dist shaft rotates as you insert it and it engages the camgear, so you need to start it a little below the spot you want it to be when installed, and as said before the timing light should light about middle of the scale when the dist. adjustment range is also in the middle, or you need to pull and re position the dist shaft/camgear mesh. If the chain has jumped on the gears, all bets are off!! Also the O tdc mark is always there when the #1 cylinder is at tdc, but its a four stroke and the cam must be at powerstroke position also, (or both valves closed on # 1) to set the dist right.

B874Runner

Your timing chain is not off a link is it?

smogman

I don't think any of these answers are relevent. If your truck runs fine and your timing is at 40deg. there is 1 of 2 problems. Either your not checking it right (#2 plug or something), or your timing is actually right and your indicators are wrong. If your balancer has slipped or you don't have a matched pointer and balancer. This is the only 2 things it can be. the timing chain a tooth off, with the distributor set to tdc and timed correctly will not cause this. if the distributor was a tooth off it be at 40 deg. (like it was) and run like crap. Then when you move it to the correct location and set your timing to spec it would run great. this is exactly the opposite of what happened to you.

Here is how to find the problem. pull #1 plug and put a small WOODEN stick down the spark plug hole and turn the motor over by hand till it's at it's highest point, TDC. look at your timing marks, they should be at tdc. I will bet they are not. this is your problem, not the actual timing. fix this and you will find your timing is now magically retarded.

You can run a 22r with the cam timing actually off 1 tooth and get better bottom end out of it. you actually move the distributor and set the timing to spec and the cam is still off 1 tooth. So your dist. timing is on and your cam timing is approx 10 degree's retarded. And magically when you check your timing it is a spec. truck has great bottom end and less top end. So all the guys saying your cam is a tooth off I don't think understand your problem. There is a big difference between cam timing and distributor timing and distributor a tooth off and the cam a tooth off.
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dubyayoung

Smogman, that is exactly what I thought the problem was, but when I moved the distributor the first time I had already done what you said, except I used a screwdriver, not a wooden dowell, so I know the #1 piston was at TDC compression when the timing mark was at zero. I then installed the distributor with the rotor pointing to #1 after it was installed.

I was scared about what everyone was writing about the timing chain, so I decided I would just put the distributor back to where it ran OK, and I would drive it somewhere to have them look at it. Funny thing is when I got it back there it wouldn't start. I rotated the distributor to the stop and it fired off but was not happy, like it really was firing 40 degrees BTC and trying to push the piston back down. So I put the engine back to TDC compression #1, and reinstalled the distributor where it was supposed to be, pointing at #1, and it started right up. Crazy.

It is still not running well, and backfires if I accelerate too fast, but at least it is drivable now. Before I could barely get down the street without it dying.

What is different? I have no idea.

I think there is something else wrong besides the timing though. I can rotate the distributor and the RPMs will go up and down, and they are closest to normal when the timing is 0 with the lines off, and slightly advanced with them on. It does seem the happiest there, it just has slow acceleration and backfires if I accelerate too much.

I did spray carb cleaner around the carb while it was running and didn't notice any change.

smogman

IT sounds like your missing something. You have to make sure the piston is tdc. not just close to tdc. (never use a scredriver or anything metal to check tdc. hopefully you didn't bend a valve or break a ring land!) mark where the dowel goes up and where the dowel goes down, on the pulley. in the middle of these marks is tdc. You have to make sure this matches the marks on the pulley. just becasue you found tdc and installed the distributor, doesnt mean your marks are on. you are only doing this to verify your marks are correct, not to set the distributor. popping out of the exhaust on decel is related to: to much fuel dumping on decel, retarted timing or bent valve on the exhaust. lets hope it the timing is retarded. stop with the carb cleaner! you might as well pee on the spark plugs while its running. vacuum leaks will not cause your timing problem. focus on the problem and pay attention to what your doing and you will figure it out. The only thing I forgot to mention but I highly doubt this is the problem, is to check for a stuck advance in tha distributor. do this by starting the truck and see what the timing is at and make a note. rev the truck up to 2500-3000 rpms and see what the timing is. if the timing is the same get a new distributor. Also check and make sure your rotor is not moving around on the shaft. you should get about 30 degree's or more of timing advance out of your distributor from idle to high rpm's. check this with your vacuum advance connected and write down the readings, and then check with vacuum disconnected and write it down.
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dubyayoung

I rechecked the piston position in relation to the timing mark, and it is at TDC when the indicator is about 24 BTDC!

I guess I could install the distributor there, but then I will be back where I started and it won't pass smog.

Is there an easy to get that back in line?

BTW, I did a compression test just for good measure before I checked the timing mark and they all had good compression. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

xxxtreme22r

There is absolutely no reason why that should be off unless your doing something wrong or the crank pulley/balancer has shifted itself. Chains stretch but they don't stretch that far. And it's actually rather uncommon for these chains to jump a link because of it being stretched unless there is a complete failure of the tensioner. The crank pulley is a two-piece pulley and I have seen in the past where it messes up that timing mark.

This is what it's supposed to look like when it's timed properly. Take notice the cam dimple/notch is on top and the #1 intake and exhaust valves are supposed to be loose indicating TDC #1 compression stroke. There is two TDC's you have to get the correct one.



And to make sure the balancer has not shifted the timing mark, take the pulley bolt off and when at TDC the keyway should be on top and aligned with the timing groove.

dubyayoung

Yeah, I haven't taken any of that off to expose the timing chain. Everything is still installed, timing mark at 24 degrees BTDC when #1 piston is at TDC compression.

Is the pulley not keyed? How does it slip and how do I put it back?

I see the picture now! I don't know if you just added that or not, but I missed it before.

So the pulley is keyed, how could it have slipped?

xxxtreme22r

Not sure how they slip, and once it does it's technically not a two-piece and cannot be moved back.

Did you take your valve cover off at least?

smogman

See it pays to slow down. now your heading in the right direction. either your balancer needs to be changed or the keyway has an issue. take the balancer off and you should be able to figure it out. when you instal the new balancer or fix the problem, your timing marks should be right on tdc. Thats how you verify your indicators match your crankshaft. I would not worry about your timing chain marks. The reason for this is simple, you align the keyway to tdc and the camshaft to the mark. your problem is the indicators from the front cover to the balancer and these are not used to align the timing chain. If you get it all back together and it runs like crap, then set the timing indicators to tdc and pop off the valve cover and check "CAM TIMING". I'm pretty sure it ok though.

When I smog check a vehicle and it runs good but the timing is way off like your was, I tell the customer "your timing is off but it is probably correct. Your balancer has slipped or some other problem. If the vehicle runs good, actually runs good, then do not change the timing hoping to correct a problem for the smog inspection. You usually just create more problems and then end up chasing ghost."

dubyayoung

Is the timing mark supposed to be aligned with the keyway?

The key had not sheared, so that is the only thing off I see.

xxxtreme22r

there is your problem. Time to find a new balancer.