Plumbers opinion?

Ron Helmuth · 02-19-2009, 02:22 PM

I saw a device on TV that clamps onto the pipe to heat it for soldering.

It seemed like a smart idea to me-since I always have too much stuff to hold when trying to "sweat" a joint-solder the connection in place.

It heats it hot enough that you only have to hold the solder and touch it to the joint and it wicks up and seals it.

No I don't remember what it is called-it was on "COOL TOOLS" on DIY Network I think it was.

Any plumbers out there? Does this seem like a logical tool for occasional copper pipe soldering usage?

I have a bathroom remodel underway-about 18 months now....

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Plumbrbob · 02-26-2009, 06:05 PM

I am a Washington Certified Journey plumber, certified brazer, certified med gas brazer, & instructor.

Using a device that would heat up the pipe sounds fishy.
It most likely works otherwise it would be joke, but my biggest concern is if the joint is strong?
You can get 25% penetration in the cup of a fitting and not have a leak. now is that joint strong? NO it is not it will last long, they came out with a 2 part epoxy goo for copper and I rip that crap out all the time.

Soldering copper joints is not a hard process once understood and if you understood the hows and whys you would shy away from this TV product.

How to solder copper pipe and fittings

#1 clean pipe and fittings with emery cloth or mesh cloth
#2 apply a thin layer of flux in fitting cup and pipe end with a acid brush
#3 heat the fitting cup NOT THE PIPE evenly around cup of fitting
#4 apply solder 180 degrees from flame and rotate flame and solder around cup keeping a 180 degree separation.
#5 let cool its ok to quench with water or a damp towel, be carful not to move or jar while solder is still molten
#6 wipe clean and inspect for holes or gaps in solder joint, re-solder all gaps and holes in solder cap area

Q's

Why clean everything? dirt and debris causes leaks and dirt causes solder less voids in fitting cup

Why heat the cup of the fitting and not the pipe ? solder at its melting point will draw towards the heat source so you want the solder to draw into the fitting cup so that is where you apply your heat

Why 180 separation of solder and flame? this is to ensure that you have the entire fitting at the correct melting point and the solder pulls into the fitting instead of just capping the gap. Some times less than 180 is ok due to tight spaces but never apply solder and flame at 0 - 0 degrees its just not a strong joint.

Why check for gap and holes? This will save you time fixing leaks and test with air first pump the system up to 100psi for 15 min if there is a leak use soapy water and spray all you fittings, when you find the leak release the air and re solder apply more flux. I fyou charge with water you may find difficulty resoldering the joint because of water cooling your heating process

Tricks and tips

do not let flux set for more than an hour, after an hour the flux will green the pipe and it will be impossible to make a solid joint

do not assemble too much of a bunch of flimsy pieces will slip out of the cup and then you will solder it half in and it will leak

Mark the cup penetration on the pipe with a marker to ensure you have full pipe penetration

if a piece keeps falling out a pair of pliers can be used to slightly crimp the fitting cup and then give the pipe a 90 degree turn it will not fall out after that

If you try to fix a leak and you can not get it to stop leaking then just cut it out and re do it with couplers

Pre fabbing saves time trying to do tight field joints

using metal sheets on potential burn areas will keep the fire alarm from going off

have a fire extinguisher handy and a spray bottle of water

after your last solder burn remain on site for 1/2 hr to ensure no fires were started

Now after all that I will tell you that at Home depot, Lowes, and many plumbing supply stores they have a new fitting called a Sharkbite it is a push on fitting with O-ring technology it is fool proof and easy the fitting swivels after setting and is removable with a simple C-tool. the fitting range from 5 to 25 dollars so fitting cost is high but it may take the PITA out of your plumbing project.

kdx2000 · 02-27-2009, 08:33 AM

I agree with Plumbrbob on the Sharkbite fittings, they rock! I have used them extensibly on a outdoor wood burner project without any problems. They are a little spendy, but you can join different types of plumbing together like pex to copper to pvc. The best part is you don't have to soldier.

Ron Helmuth · 02-28-2009, 08:19 PM

that is most helpful plumbrbob

I am printing it out to help me in the future too.

okay these sharkbite fittings would they be removable and reusable as well? That would justify a higher cost.

schaueelab · 02-28-2009, 08:52 PM

Don't forget to ream your pipe when soldering its very very important!!!!!!
and if you dont want to solder then use PEX!!!!

JasonWin · 02-28-2009, 09:01 PM

Well I thought I would be able to help but it looks like plumbrbob has pretty much mentioned everything.

Plumbrbob · 02-28-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schaueelab

Don't forget to ream your pipe when soldering its very very important!!!!!!
and if you dont want to solder then use PEX!!!!

yes you are correct you should ream the pipe ends to full bore to make the system flow smoothly. using a pencil reamer is quite handy and fast. If you do not ream pipe there will be material left over at the pipe end causing small venturi's that will wear down the pipe, typically causing pinhole leaks.

02-26-2009, 06:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Plumbrbob Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Tacoma, Washington Posts: 925	I am a Washington Certified Journey plumber, certified brazer, certified med gas brazer, & instructor. Using a device that would heat up the pipe sounds fishy. It most likely works otherwise it would be joke, but my biggest concern is if the joint is strong? You can get 25% penetration in the cup of a fitting and not have a leak. now is that joint strong? NO it is not it will last long, they came out with a 2 part epoxy goo for copper and I rip that crap out all the time. Soldering copper joints is not a hard process once understood and if you understood the hows and whys you would shy away from this TV product. How to solder copper pipe and fittings #1 clean pipe and fittings with emery cloth or mesh cloth #2 apply a thin layer of flux in fitting cup and pipe end with a acid brush #3 heat the fitting cup NOT THE PIPE evenly around cup of fitting #4 apply solder 180 degrees from flame and rotate flame and solder around cup keeping a 180 degree separation. #5 let cool its ok to quench with water or a damp towel, be carful not to move or jar while solder is still molten #6 wipe clean and inspect for holes or gaps in solder joint, re-solder all gaps and holes in solder cap area Q's Why clean everything? dirt and debris causes leaks and dirt causes solder less voids in fitting cup Why heat the cup of the fitting and not the pipe ? solder at its melting point will draw towards the heat source so you want the solder to draw into the fitting cup so that is where you apply your heat Why 180 separation of solder and flame? this is to ensure that you have the entire fitting at the correct melting point and the solder pulls into the fitting instead of just capping the gap. Some times less than 180 is ok due to tight spaces but never apply solder and flame at 0 - 0 degrees its just not a strong joint. Why check for gap and holes? This will save you time fixing leaks and test with air first pump the system up to 100psi for 15 min if there is a leak use soapy water and spray all you fittings, when you find the leak release the air and re solder apply more flux. I fyou charge with water you may find difficulty resoldering the joint because of water cooling your heating process Tricks and tips do not let flux set for more than an hour, after an hour the flux will green the pipe and it will be impossible to make a solid joint do not assemble too much of a bunch of flimsy pieces will slip out of the cup and then you will solder it half in and it will leak Mark the cup penetration on the pipe with a marker to ensure you have full pipe penetration if a piece keeps falling out a pair of pliers can be used to slightly crimp the fitting cup and then give the pipe a 90 degree turn it will not fall out after that If you try to fix a leak and you can not get it to stop leaking then just cut it out and re do it with couplers Pre fabbing saves time trying to do tight field joints using metal sheets on potential burn areas will keep the fire alarm from going off have a fire extinguisher handy and a spray bottle of water after your last solder burn remain on site for 1/2 hr to ensure no fires were started Now after all that I will tell you that at Home depot, Lowes, and many plumbing supply stores they have a new fitting called a Sharkbite it is a push on fitting with O-ring technology it is fool proof and easy the fitting swivels after setting and is removable with a simple C-tool. the fitting range from 5 to 25 dollars so fitting cost is high but it may take the PITA out of your plumbing project. __________________ 79 YotA ThinG Mods: http://www.yotatech.com/blogs/plumbr...list-mods.html

02-27-2009, 08:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
kdx2000 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West Virginia Posts: 85	I agree with Plumbrbob on the Sharkbite fittings, they rock! I have used them extensibly on a outdoor wood burner project without any problems. They are a little spendy, but you can join different types of plumbing together like pex to copper to pvc. The best part is you don't have to soldier. __________________ 99' 4-Runner Limited 67' Firebird 400 91' 4-Runner Sr5 (totalled) R.I.P. 06' YZ250 83' XT550 77' YZ125

02-28-2009, 08:52 PM	#5 (permalink)
schaueelab Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SLC,UT Posts: 40	Don't forget to ream your pipe when soldering its very very important!!!!!! and if you dont want to solder then use PEX!!!! __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of Arms"

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02-28-2009, 08:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Ron Helmuth Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Denver metro area-CO Posts: 1,339	that is most helpful plumbrbob I am printing it out to help me in the future too. okay these sharkbite fittings would they be removable and reusable as well? That would justify a higher cost.